however, the current policies (affirm.action/no child left behind/welfare/etc) are often past the point of effectiveness. I think an interesting study would be to study the life-cycle of a social program. eventually it will become corrupt and become less useful below the point of effectivness. I would think every program gets there eventually.  

Jul 24, 2008 4:58:12 pm
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Abby about:
I think the whole system needs to be reworked..but i think some form of welfare and food stamps is clearly necessary. 

Jul 24, 2008 4:53:33 pm
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wes about:
also Doug, i don't think anyone has suggested we stand idly by either. this conversation is about the effects of affirmitive action. no debate about whether a problem exists or if it should be addressed, just about the effectiveness of this particular policy.  

Jul 24, 2008 4:52:58 pm
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wes about:
Doug, you really don't think welfare and food stamps promote being lazy and not working hard? you are sadly mistaken. There are lots of people of ALL colors who take handouts from teh gov't and skate by w/o ever working for anything. and its your taxes that are feeding them. i like accountability far more than communism.

And Berg, show me some data that affirmitive action accomplishes what you claim. I think your response that women should get a job and be thankful is ignorant and offensive.  

Jul 24, 2008 4:50:44 pm
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Thews about:
That last post was for Berg and should read "view it as drunken nonsense" 

Jul 24, 2008 4:49:22 pm
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Abby about:
let me add: Don't get knocked up/don't get anyone else pregnant 

Jul 24, 2008 4:45:57 pm
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Thews about:
You also thinking everyone who drives should be gifted a Volvo, because they are "safer". Your political opinions, rather your opinions in general don't carry much weight with me. I kind of view and drunken nonsense... 

Jul 24, 2008 4:45:51 pm
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Abby about:
I'm with you doug...anything to help even up the playing field at the beginning of life...but for goodness sakes..at a certain point i am done with handouts. pay attention in school..work hard..get good grades, stay out of trouble and and you won't have problems later in life! 

Jul 24, 2008 4:45:21 pm
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Abby about: Affirmative Action
Thought this was really intersting: Education and work experience are the two most reliable predictors of a worker's earnings. Black workers historically have had much lower education than white workers. Adjusting for racial differences in education and work experience can account for about half of the wage gap between black men and white men, and about one-third of the gap between black women and white women. Additionally, holding constant differences in individuals' test scores leads to a further reduction in the black-white earnings gap. For example, in one study, in 1991, black males earned 29 percent less than white males without any adjustments, 15 percent less after adjusting for education and experience, and 9 percent less after additionally adjusting for test scores. For women, the gap declines from 14 percent to almost zero after making these adjustments. There is some controversy as to how to interpret the black-white wage gap after holding constant differences in education, test scores, and other variables. 

Jul 24, 2008 4:43:21 pm
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Uncle Dougums about:
Even when you look at the Supreme Court decisions they (well at least Justice O'Connor who wrote them) are pretty clear that there HAS to be an end game to all of this- and there will be, sooner rather than later, a point where an affirmative action case comes before them and they strike it down. With affirmative action the Court has made a distinction that I really like and I think can work- there is a stark difference in how affirmative action is viewed in education vs. work-place. I think it is fair to say that the vast majority (albeit not all of them) of underperforming schools are in either inner cities or the rural south- where the vast majority of students are minorities- so I'm ok with giving them a one up on college admissions and even professional school admissions- but maybe that's where it needs to end- and maybe we are closing in on an attitude where it doesn't matter- where corporate america just wants the best person regardless. I really feel that everyone should get the same opportunities in life in starting off- that's why I'm ok with welfare or WIC or food stamps and why i'm a big supporter of universal child healthcare- perhaps the classification needs to be changed for education to give someone who scored a 1200 on the SATs and is in the lower 20% of the schools a boost above the same 1200 from the top high school in the country- idk I'm sure theres a problem with that too- but I think standing idly by and not addressing the problem isn't a good option- anyways, since we've got Thews' tax dollars we might as well spend em 

Jul 24, 2008 4:40:08 pm
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Berg about:
i disagree - aff action is helping WAY MORE than it's hurting or helping to 'prolong' racism. And I think AffAction contributing to hiring less qualified people based on race is not as prevelant as most people on this board tend to believe.

Fair enough, affirmative action addresses a problem. I don't think anyone would argue that there isn't, and very obviously was, a serious problem in racial equality. But by "fixing it" affirmative action creates other problems. Do you not see that? You have qualified people of a certain race being passed on in favor of less qualified people of a different race. That's a problem, in theory the exact problem affirmitve action is trying to solve, just reversed. It promotes a medicore mean and hampers excellence. Andy's point about his cousin, while undocumented, proves this. Don't you want the best applicants serving as your police officers? Our society is founded on hard work and excellence. I understand that for centuries blacks had virtually no oppurtunity due to systemic racism in virtually every aspect of society, and that equal rights is still a relatively new phenomenon, but when has it done all it can and we go back to a "true equality" where you get what you deserve based on nothing more than ability and responsibility? And I also understand the value of diversity and that it would be an added value to any organization to pick an applicant of an under represented group over an equal of an over represneted. But it isn't working that way.  

Jul 24, 2008 3:35:10 pm
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Uncle Dougums about:
Through that argument the entire distinction or the term race is racist and making attempts to divide people into groups merely bolsters that- and there is a large school of thought in cultural studies that takes that tract, and its valid. I guess when I think of racism i connect the definition with a motivation- hate- so i see programs like affirmative action as something different, as coming from an attempt to "fix a problem"- maybe you dont see that problem- but knowing my studies (at least wes) in grad school, you know that i'm biased to see a problem that does need to be fixed- but i dont see them as racist because to me the motivator , or in legal terms, the mens rea- just isn't there. But then again when someone calls the NAACP racist i get pretty disgusted- because the alternative- No NAACP still has black people sitting on the back of buses, serving as cooks in our military, and in separate schools 

Jul 24, 2008 3:15:36 pm
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wes about:
you are right, i was thinking of the undergrad case. but i thought that somehow a result was the state of michigan altering (lessoning?) the application of affirmative action. i thought that when it was all said and done, they dropped the points thing and looked at how affirmative action was being applied in other sectors. if i made that up, than my bad, but i was trying to illustrate that everyone thought affirm.action was hunky dorey untill someone challenged it and then it was scrutized and altered because of its inherrent racism. if not, it should be.

if in fact i am way off, i have to disagree with the ruling. that's the crux of this discussion i think. is the racism "worth it" in order to promote diversity. thews and the author of that WSJ article are arguing that it is not and that it is a product of "white guilt" and by contiuating racism, no matter how nobel the cause, you will never advance past it. So the U of M case proved that you can legally do that. I say bullshit, but i am open to disagreeing on that point. I will not listen to Berg argue that it's not racist though. It is. whether its good or bad is another issue. I think its run its course and what ever usefullness affirmative action had, if any, is done. now it runs the risk of promoting mediocracy, as thewws says, and it is against everything our country stands for. 

Jul 24, 2008 3:03:47 pm
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Uncle Dougums about: Columbus Police
Wes- I heart when you cite case law. The U Mich cases didnt say that affirmative action is racist- actually the court stated that the state has a compelling interest in achieving a racially diverse student body and may do so with the law school system set up- i.e. that race is a fact within analysis of individual applicant- therefore the court said that where you have two applicants that are identical and you choose one because they are a minority then you have met a compelling state interest. You are thinkin of the companion case which analyzed UM's undergraduate admission process which had a complex point system that gave minority applicants an automatic 20 points- the court noted that while the state interest of promoting a diverse educational system is compelling the Undergraduate system was not sufficiently narrow to meet that interest (which the law school's was)- bottom line the supreme court has recognized that in EDUCATION (not workplace) there is a compelling state interest for affirmative action. 

Jul 24, 2008 2:51:59 pm
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Thews about: Columbus Police
Berg - you dumbass, that's the dark secret of Affirmative Action. It comes down to shit like that and thus encourages racism and mediocrity. Once again, you are wrong. You're wiki argue even states that AffAction gives preferential treatment to groups. You think that's right?? It's bullshit, it's communism and against everything America stands for. Competition makes this country great not hand-outs and "reparations." All this equality seeking by Dems is ludacris. Not everyone is created equal, that's nature. We should treat everyone as equals that's an ideal that we should strive for. But Dems always fuck it up by backing things like Affirmative Action, hate crimes legislation, welfare, and a bazillion subsidies to everything under the sun. I wanna pick up my ball and not play anymore, when reverse racism abounds like AffAction, the United Negro College Fund, The NAACP, those are all institutions of reverse racism. It easy to see... If you replace black, colored, African American with white, would the African American community bitch, if yes, it's racist. 

Jul 24, 2008 2:43:16 pm
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wes about:
wait... Berg, Andy needs documented proof for using his cousin's statements in an argument, but you are gonna throw out Stern as an expert on history/foriegn policy/anything other than boobs? 

Jul 24, 2008 2:42:36 pm
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andy about: Columbus Police
I guess in fairness, no i did not qualify this with the police back then. honestly, i was strictly going on my recollection of what my cousin said - i did not research this. now that you mention it, i bet he is probably a biggot and a racist. i'm sure he made it up to explain to his family why he was passed over when he brought back a 100% written test score and 97% physical test score.  

Jul 24, 2008 2:35:55 pm
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wes about: Columbus Police
again..."by preferential treatment given to applicants from designated groups"

That IS what its all about. I don't think its that hard to understand. The reasoning has merit, but to suggest that it isn't racist is wrong.  

Jul 24, 2008 2:33:05 pm
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Berg about: Columbus Police
now that i re-read andy's post...2 things...can you really verify that? i didn't find it on their webpage. is this the 'un-written rule' your cousin says exists?
if that indeed is a publicly stated thing, and not something your cousin feels or was told is true...then it's wrong and not what affirmative action is about! 

Jul 24, 2008 2:23:14 pm
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wes about:
Is there anything in the english language that can be more discrediting to an argument then the phrase..."Stern made a great point today"?

let me first rip you apart by pointing out that the Iran hostage crisis you are speaking of had nothing to do w/ Carter's diplomacy. Iran was ruled by the autocratic Shah for decades and was a close ally of the US. He was overthrown in a revolution and Carter eventually granted him assylum. The Iranian revolutionaries captured the embassy in order to demand the release of the Shah and his fortune among other things. None of this in any way correlates to the current concerns w/ Iran or any other "axis of evil" nation.

Secondly, among numerous other accolades, Jimmy Carter won the fucking NOBEL PEACE PRIZE specifically for his negotiations w/ Palestien, Iran, N.Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, et al. I think the fucking NOBEL PEACE PRIZE commission has a better grasp for successful diplomatic measures than Howard Stern. Not one thing in your post, other than perhaps your allussion to having listened to Howard Stern is even remotely accurate. In fact I would argue that you are making my case for me. Jimmy Carter, while running an abortion of a presidency, is one of the greatest diplomats of our generation. I offer his ridiculously long list of international awards and accolades as proof. 

Jul 24, 2008 2:19:34 pm
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Aaron about:
good assesment wes. Ha, future lawyers suing a law school.  

Jul 24, 2008 2:10:25 pm
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wes about:
i believe Andy is saying those are the req'd passing SCORES. that's the point, affirmative action policies are inherently racist. "by preferential treatment given to applicants from designated groups" is by definition racist. you can believe in the altruistic motivation for aff.action, but the fact remains that in practice one group is giving preferential treatment for no other reason than their sex, race, or religion. that equals discrimination against someone else. you can debate whether or not affirmitve action is worth it in order to promote socio-economic advancement of a group that needs the boost, but you cannot argue that it isn't a racist policy. I believe the case against Mich. U's law school pretty much settled it. 

Jul 24, 2008 2:04:54 pm
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andy about:
i know where you're going with that - there were only a small number of positions available, so while the black candidates could very well have scored higher, they only had to score 80% to be considered for the next level and not held to the same standard. ie, potentially less qualified. just doesn't seem right. affirmative action seems great on paper, but you have to admit that it does open the door to mediocrity in reality.  

Jul 24, 2008 2:00:20 pm
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Berg about: Affirmative action
and it's not just quotas...here's wiki's take...